Job Interviews, Entry Interviews, Stay Interviews, Exit Interviews… That’s A Lot of Interviews!
This week’s hot take is inspired by this video, in which bestselling author Adam Grant discusses his perspective on exit interviews; in summary, that by the time someone has committed to leaving a company, an interview to understand why they have reached that decision is really a case of too little, too late.
I agree. Completely. I think most People professionals would agree.
Adam suggests - in addition to exit interviews - companies should look to make earlier interventions by engaging employees in ‘entry interviews’ and ‘stay interviews’. My question is this, why are we interviewing?
Exit Interviews: What’s the Point?
Exit interviews are a staple component of the employee lifecycle, but in my experience, serve different purposes depending on which People professional you ask.
I’ve heard all of the following (and more!) suggested as reasons for conducting an exit interview;
- It’s an opportunity to assess the risk the leaver poses to the business
- It’s a box-ticking exercise (because there’s an assumption that the leaver will expect to be given the opportunity to share their parting thoughts)
- In cases of negative, voluntary turnover - where the company might like to rehire that individual in future - it’s a way to keep things amicable
- It’s a mechanism to generate insight that forms a feedback loop to continuously improve People Experience at the company
For me, an exit interview has the best positive impact when it’s a psychologically safe discussion and a reflective conversation that helps the leaver to feel better. That’s the primary goal. I want them to feel better. For me this is a duty of care.
In the same way that I’d conduct a return to work conversation for someone returning after compassionate leave, and have always had my People teams conduct end-of-month one conversations with new joiners, I acknowledge that while change can be exciting and personally fulfilling, it can be stressful and anxiety-inducing.
In these moments I’ve always channelled my coaching and mental health first aid training. I’m ready to listen without judgement. I’m not there to ‘interview’ that person. If someone is leaving I’m there to help them get a sense of closure. Harbouring negative feelings as you move into a new challenge is not fun. Some genuine reflection is also likely to help that individual think twice about writing the glassdoor review from hell.
However, let’s face it - exit interviews should definitely also tackle the last in that ‘what purpose does this serve’ list of bullet points - it should be a mechanism for the business to learn, and to embed those learnings into a continuously improved People Experience. That’s what Adam Grant is suggesting, too.
But in my experience, rarely are any HR interviews, at any stage of the employee lifecycle, an effective feedback loop.
Stop Interviewing. Start Enabling.
When someone secures a new role, they’ve just been through an interview process. A great job interview process is engaging and is a two-way street, a mutli-player experience that should aim to enable someone to opt-out of any process for a role or company that doesn’t feel right to them. It should not be an interrogation, it should not feel onerous, it should involve timely and constructive feedback, it should not put undue pressure on the candidate and for the love of all things People, companies need to stop ghosting candidates for two weeks before replying with “Congrats, here’s an interview challenge, you’ve got 48 hours to prepare for it and if you really want this job, you’ll find a way to make that happen.”
Once someone has joined, and as I’ve mentioned already, I’m a big fan of month one check-ins. They continue to onboard, pass their probation and a ‘Stay Interview’ is a super idea too. But…
I believe that People professionals need to be great room-readers, with the ability to adapt and be versatile depending on what’s presented. This includes having the ability to detach oneself from being either a representative of the company, or the protector of the people - and to play an objective, pragmatic role instead. To be humble. To help remove dissonance and anxiety. To be a coach. To be a brilliant listener.
Interviews are assessments. Ultimately that’s how we’re making people feel every time we put them on the spot and ask them for definitive answers to important questions.
Instead I’d love to see HR functions using these conversations as source data for enablement.
Engagement surveys have become, in and of themselves, attempts at engagement-enhancing initiatives (because let’s face it, rarely does that data translate to action) and employees know this. They resent the bi-annual survey, they’re also suspicious of your fortnightly pulse check too. Conducting an entry, stay or exit interview is no different.
- Step One : Stop Interviewing - If we want to prevent disengagement and allow managers the opportunity to address issues as they arise, first of all we need to stop interviewing. Get some coaching training and change the focus from assessing the situation, to enabling a useful conversation that you can speak from when supporting managers (who have a really tough job to do.)
- Step Two: Be Proactive - Regular check-ins identify potential problems before they’ve become problems, and people shouldn’t only speak to HR when something has gone dramatically wrong.
- Step Three : Create Accountability - All that coaching effort, and all the psychological safety that People professionals work hard to establish and maintain is worth nothing if the insight this uncovers equates to no change. Analyse your conversations, turn that analysis into insight and create accountability. Transparency is key.
How Would You Feel? (It’s Time To Get Better at HR Analytics)
Imagine speaking to a coach, sharing that an individual is causing an issue for you (perhaps a colleague, perhaps a manager, perhaps the founders, perhaps the CEO) and that coach sharing all your thoughts and perspective verbatim with that individual. How can psychological safety be redeemed in that situation? Where has the duty of care gone? What was the point in them speaking to their coach to begin with?
I don’t share exit interview transcripts. I don’t quote what leavers have told me verbatim with their managers. I never have and (unless someone or something can persuade me otherwise) I never will.
Some HR people do and I’ve certainly had line managers push for it. But I think it’s unprofessional. I think it lacks tact. I think it turns the HR person’s role into one of being a messenger of gossip, not a strategic partner. (Caveat; should something come up that warrants an investigation, that is different. I am not talking about ignoring grievances and if a leader or manager is clearly demonstrating repeated unhelpful behaviour, I’ll use my discretion and I’ll intervene!)
Instead, I code. I review the content, I create a longlist of themes, I count frequency of occurrence and then I collate. I find the patterns, I look for the significance and that is what gets shared back to the business. Managers don’t need to fixate on one-off anecdotes or specific pieces of angry feedback that they find personally challenging. Founders and CSuite don’t need to spend time concocting ways to make themselves feel justified for their behaviour. HR don’t need to spend time excusing areas where the quality of People Experience is lacking. These are distractions.
Senior management and leadership need to access a dashboard. An at-a-glance summary of the problem areas, how often they are being mentioned at which stages of the employee lifecycle and the impact these themes are creating. It needs a whole-org view, and a departmental breakdown. That doesn’t need a piece of shiny software (although most companies are already using something that HR could leverage) You can build this in a Google Sheet.
Your aim is to find the fewest, distinct areas for improvement and to share them in transparency with the individuals in the business who have the opportunity to impact change. Every departmental VP should be able to see how their departmental insights, derived from these HR conversations, stack up against other departments.
Stop assessing. Stop interviewing. Stop intervening.
Be a coach. Create accountability. Enable change.
Word From The Street
Ginni’s favourite quote of the week from the HR Community
At the risk of this week’s Culture Correspondence becoming an ode to Adam Grant… I don’t know about you, but the use of Myers-Briggs personality types in the workplace really grinds my gears. I enjoyed reposting this on LinkedIn this week! “You don’t have to choose between being a thinker or a feeler”... PREACH.
Recommended
No cookie cutters or silver bullets here, just things Ginni thinks are interesting and/or useful.
This week I want to highlight the People Operations jobs board. Many People professionals have been impacted by layoffs and/or are leaving roles in what have transpired to be non-People first cultures. This collection of People roles is a useful collation of current vacancies.